Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited to share a conversation I had with a friend and someone that I met in my own mastermind with my coach Amber Lilyestrom. We mentioned that a few times, but I met Jenni Gritters in Elevate and we do very similar things. We have very similar values. We approach to business.
When she came out with her book, The Sustainable Solopreneur, I was like, I think I need to have her on the podcast because I think you'll benefit a lot from her angle and even the vocabulary she uses. Even though we have similar messages, her approach is unique and I think you're going to love her. I think you're going to love her approach to business.
We talk a lot about, obviously, sustainability in business, which our definition, you'll hear us talk about it in our conversation, but it's not just like, hey, how do I avoid burnout? It's like developing a business model, pricing, belief system, clientele, work hours that feel your soul, that you feel led up by, that is profitable, that serves your clients. It can look so many different ways. We don't teach one way of doing business.
I think you're really going to get a lot out of it, no matter where you're at in business, just to think through growth periods, cycles in your business, cycles in your life, ups and downs, making decisions, making pivots, choosing aligned offers for your clients and for yourself and for your family. A lot of the stuff that we talk about in this podcast, Jenni brings a fresh perspective and I know you're going to love it. So without further ado, let's jump into my conversation with Jenni.
Amber: Welcome to the podcast, Jenni. I'm so excited to have you.
Jenni: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I feel like this is a long time coming for us.
Amber: It’s a long time coming. And I'm like, I was just joking with you, like I wish I hit record because everything that's about to come out of your mouth is going to be a goldmine of amazing things for these people who are about to listen. So I invited you because you wrote a book called The Sustainable Solopreneur, which I'll make sure that everyone can find it. But I want to kind of like go back at the inception of the book, mingle in some of like what you do and who you are.
Jenni: Yes. Yeah. Great question. Okay. So a few things to know about me. I'm a mom. I have two little kids. They are three and six. And I was a journalist for a decade and a half. And so part of the reason this book came into being is that I was, for a long time, halfway a writer and halfway a coach. So I had a writing agency and then I was coaching.
And when I closed my writing agency, it was like I got a bunch of my words back. So I've been trying to write a book for a long time, maybe a decade. And I just haven't had the capacity, which we can talk about. I was literally giving my words away to my clients. And so I was sitting in a retreat with the coach that we have shared, Amber Lilyestrom, and we did a breathwork session. And immediately, the entire vision for The Sustainable Solopreneur dropped in.
Like I saw the outline. I visually saw it. I saw the outline. I saw all the different pieces. And I like opened my eyes. Everyone else was still meditating. And I started scrambling for my notebook. But I started writing it on the plane home. So, and you've written kind of like a quick writing process too. Like I wrote it in five weeks, but it had also been baking for me.
Amber: Right. You had been actually writing it for like years, probably.
Jenni: Correct. Yeah. And I've been teaching this ethos for a long time. So it just feels like this ethos now finally lives in a book that's separate from me. So when I talk about what I do as a coach, I haven't joked. I'm like, am I even a business coach? I'm an amazing strategist. But what I do is I help you build a business that doesn't look like anybody else's because your life doesn't look like anybody else's.
So there's a lot of work in that of permission slip giving and sort of like working with all the parts of you that think she's supposed to do it in a certain way. And so that's the big work. So the book feels like it's a little written permission slip with a ton of examples of how other people have done it so that you kind of have this like whole bucket to choose from, but there's no prescription. That's what's important to you.
Amber: Yeah. That's a great thing because it feels like a little catalog of like, that's a good idea, but it's not like, yeah, I think you should do it this way. There's none of that in the book.
Jenni: No. And that's on purpose, right? Because I have a lot of people, maybe you do too, who come into my coaching room and they're like, well, someone else told me to do it this way and it's not working. I'm like, well, of course it's not because your life doesn't look like that. Your energetics of your person don't look like that.
Amber: You don't even want it to be that way.
Jenni: Yeah. Like it looks sexy, but to live that and to actually show up and do whatever that shiny object strategy is doesn't feel good to you. The point of the book is really, I often say a business is like putting together a puzzle, but only you can put it together in your way. So I just gave you a whole bunch of puzzle pieces essentially in the book and I'm like, put it together however you want. That's the magic.
Amber: Yeah.
Jenni: I think that's what makes you actually happy in business.
Amber: Yeah. Amen. So when you were writing it, did some of the frameworks that went into the book, were you already teaching those to clients? Because I think it might be helpful for people listening even to understand what it's like to write a book.
Jenni: Absolutely. Yeah. So I had a newsletter, I still do, called The Sustainable Solopreneur, and that was sort of the scratch pad, I think, for a lot of this. So I would say about 50% of the concepts in the book I was already teaching. And then about 50% came in. It was almost a channeled experience. I would write like 10,000 words in a day, which is crazy. I also have small children, so I'd be like, I have this one day. I'm just going to do it.
Amber: Flood gates open.
Jenni: Yes, exactly. So part of it was not necessarily what I expected to write, which I think is really interesting. And then part of it was an infrastructure I had already been working with people on for years. So this is year seven of running my own business. And so that feels important to say too, that about five of those years I've been coaching. So I've also been working this body of work with hundreds of people. So the things that ended up in there are the things that I know really land when I teach them.
Amber: Yeah. And like we were saying before we hit record, it's a book that like, yeah, there's content and there's like frameworks and good information. But then it, I don't know, you position it in a way that it's like, what do you think about this? What are you going to do with this? What decisions do you need to make for your life-focused business that comes to life so it's not a prescription? Like you said, I love that.
Jenni: Yeah. It's like, I don't want you to feel like you're in a prison of your own business. I mean, how many people do we both know that have like built these businesses that they feel trapped inside of? And I think just because of my upbringing, that's like the thing I most want to avoid is feeling trapped. And so I have a lot of clients who feel that way too.
And so part of the book's ethos is like, what if we could shift and change and grow within the structure that we've created so that we don't feel trapped and so we can create these freedom-based models? I mean, I should also say this was forced a little bit because I have little kids. So as you know, it's like your life is shifting no matter what, no matter whether you want it to or not. And so I had to sort of adopt that, which is a blessing.
Amber: It's so true. And I feel like we're in the age where people are unlearning some of the business principles that they learned. I think you and I both, we prioritize creativity more than like optimization, like robotic. So like in the book too, like it's not like how to optimize your business, you know? Like that's not...
Jenni: No, no. Like I'm not the funnel girl. Like I had someone the other day tell me like, can you help me get like X number of subscribers on Substack? And I'm like, I'm not your girl for that. I mean, yes, your business will grow wildly when you work with me, but I'm not coming to it from a perspective of like … in order to eat. Everybody's going to do the same strategy, you know? I also think it's not working anymore. I feel like we should say that too. Like you and I have maybe been doing this quietly in the dark for a long time.
Amber: Yeah, for real.
Jenni: The linear strategies are just not effective. I wrote an email today about resonance as an email strategy. Like what if resonance was your strategy? By resonance, I mean like my body vibrates because yours is. Like we feel connected. My inbox is full of crap right now of like sales emails. It's a holiday weekend, right? And so if resonance was the thing, it turns out resonance drives more sales. Resonance builds you a business that works better, right?
Amber: I'm sure you have clients like this. Like they want the perfect wording or they want to say a way to get people to buy. And I'm like, I get why your brain is doing that because that's kind of like the linear thinking that we were taught in school. Yeah. Where it's like, if A plus B equals C, so then I need to figure out what A is so that I can make this equation work, right?
Like tell me what to write in my email or tell me the heading or whatever. And you're like, scratch that. Like we're not going to start there because I think you also have an interesting approach. For whatever mastermind it was, I can't remember what you said. You're like, I live in the shadows.
Jenni: Yeah, I just like, I'm like in the darkness. I'm like, let's do all the dark stuff first.
Amber: Yeah, because that's actually where you take your client. Like let's forget about trying to say it right. Who are you? Who are you becoming? What are the shadows that you're working through so that we can get to like who you really are? The resonance? I don't know. Say stuff about that process because I think it's pretty unique.
Jenni: Yeah. I mean, so I think I'm not afraid of the darkness. I had a client the other day be like, she like admitted something really heavy to me. And she was like, why aren't you having a reaction to this? It's why you're hiding a little bit in your business. It explains why you are attracting clients who don't treat you well, right? Like it explains all those things. So let's go sit there for a second, look at that shadowy piece and understand it.
And I really think that the things that stay in the shadows, they are full of shame. They get all kind of twisty. So if we can bring them out, if I can be the witness and sit there with you and almost like unshame that process. David Bedrick is a favorite teacher of mine. He talks about unshaming. All of a sudden, you're like, whoa, I have so much more freedom to both understand the pattern, but then actually move on. I think I've been doing this for a long time.
I used to do it in a linear way. And people would get to a certain point and then still be stuck. And so if you want to make a lot of money, we're talking like nervous system, we're talking subconscious patterning, we're talking, right? Like all these things that are living in your body, not your brain. So yeah, I mean, resonance is your insides match your outsides, right? And if you hate what's going on inside, you are not going to share that. And your business is going to stall. At least that's my belief. You probably see it.
Amber: Me too. Yeah, I've definitely observed that. And I think too, you don't solve the problem of like linear growth. That's not what you do. And I think there are people and probably people who resonate with this podcast episode even, they don't even want linear growth. They want creative expression. They want freedom. They want to be able to do what feels true. But like linear growth and linear models of business like don't actually account for that. It's not how it's set up.
Jenni: I mean, we want cyclicality, typically, people like us, right? So I mean, I grew up in viral media. My first job was at Upworthy, which is a viral media factory. I was an editor. And so my job, like everybody was saying, my job was to manufacture linear growth. I had to. And I watched the company plummet into the ground because of it. And so I've had a lot of experiences. And I always say to people, like, I know how to do that. But is it a wise choice?
Is it going to actually make you feel good? Every once in a while? Yes, maybe. Like there are seasons for growth. But cyclicality means seasonal, cyclical, resting and building and wintering. It's so much more dynamic. I think most women I work with want this because it's what we experience in our bodies too.
Amber: Yeah. And with our children and with our families and with our house. Yeah, for sure. I think the book writing process and launch and release and just where you're at in business is just an interesting like microcosm of that. Because like you have the inception for the book where it's this download.
Jenni: Yep.
Amber: Creative process was really fast. What was the editing process like? Did you edit it?
Jenni: I did. So because of my writing background, I had two people come in and edit it. I coach a lot of editors. So it's like, great news. Come on in. So I mean, that part was longer, right? So idea came in in March. April, I wrote the book. And then May to September were like the cover design, editing. That took way longer. But you're right. I mean, it was like a spring into summer, like fiery. And then the book launch really felt like a harvest. It was fall.
Amber: And now?
Jenni: And now I'm in winter. Which we were talking about before we hit record.
Amber: Would old you judge the seasonality of the book writing and release? Because like, old me would have been like, something is wrong. You should be in like summer and fall where you're like making things happen and harvesting like all the time.
Jenni: Yeah, it's interesting you say that. My answer is maybe. But I got into business in 2018. I had kids in 2019. And like I said, I think I kind of like the dark. I like winter. And so I've never been afraid of that. It's taken a while for my brain to trust that my business won't fall apart when I'm in winter. I think that's the part where like, I would less have judged it and more have been afraid of it. I actually just wrote an email to my list about I have been off social media for a month and my revenue is fine.
I sent up one email that said, I have five new one-to-one client spots, seven discovery calls booked, five of those people are going to book like, and I'm not online. And so that is important reprogramming for my break. That like, you can be safe and winter, right? You can be safe and slow down for a second. I mean, my business is also built for that. I should say that. So like that's part of what I teach is like, how do you build a business that allows for that as well.
Amber: Well I think sustainable, like to me, that's what it means. It's like, it can be cyclical and it can still be sustainable. It's not like, yeah, in the season of winter, like you go hungry and you don't create. It's like, no.
Jenni: No, no. I mean, this book is so interesting because she didn't want like a big launch. She wanted this sort of like wildflower seeds blown into the wind, micro communities. And so that's happening, but I'm not pushing it. I'm like doing puzzles and drinking tea and building new things. As I told you, which we can talk about, like my face isn't anywhere right now, really. And that is not something I've been brave enough to do. So yeah, I think it's an interesting question. Judge myself? No, but be afraid of it. Yes.
Yeah. Or if it's dangerous or whatever.
Jenni: Yeah. I have a lot of clients too, who are like, they get scared when they're in the dark in the And I have to remind them, like you come out every single time.
Amber: Yeah.
Jenni: Every time. And I mean, probably same for you, right? Same for me. Every time I've killed something off in my business or composted it for like freaked out about it.
Amber: I'm going to start saying that I've just composted it.
Jenni: I told my husband that I'm like, I'm composting my membership program. And he's like, you're composting the people. I'm like, I'm just composting it. I mean, it's returning the nutrients to the soil.
Amber: Yes.
Jenni: That is literally what's going on outside my window right now, too. You know?
Amber: Yeah. See, I love that. That feels more cyclical to me, too. Because some things you have to kill off. But I like the idea. But it gives life to other things.
Jenni: Yeah. I've been obsessed lately with the idea that at this time of the year, while we're recording this, it's like late fall, early winter. The tree grow more than in any other time of year. But what's growing is their root system. Isn't that juicy?
Amber: Yeah, juicy. From the outside, it looks like they're dead.
Jenni: Yes. The leaves are like composting into the soil, which is how they get more nutrition to grow the root systems. So.
Amber: Yeah.
Jenni: Right? Like, it gives me chills. So it's like, I'm actually just living in my business the way everything else is working outside my window. And I'm not separate. Like, why would I be?
Amber: That's so good. Because I think we want to run our business like robots. But I mean, you could have easily called your book like The Organic Solo Producer. It's not a good name, but you know what I mean? Like a different mentality where it's like your aliveness and aliveness also means wintering, seasons of darkness, seasons of unknown, of burning things down or composting. That's actually what it means.
Jenni: It's natural, right? I mean, I'm really good about letting go of things in my business. It's something people will say to me a lot. Like, you pivot a lot. You evolve a lot. How? And I think I just had to learn to stop making myself wrong for it.
Amber: Yeah. We must be soul sisters.
Jenni: Yeah.
Amber: It's so interesting when people are afraid to burn it down, because I'm like, oh, I think you're going to feel so much better when you do.
Jenni: Yes. Holding onto it is harder.
Amber: Yeah. Way harder. And there's more suffering. Instead of like letting — it's almost like I get excited. Like, oh, is this going to die? I'm going to use compost now that we've had this conversation. It's going to die so something else can be born, right? Something better.
Jenni: How does your brain process knowing when it's time to let go of something?
Amber: Now? I know almost immediately. The problem — at least you're probably like this, too — I can know, but like I've made commitments or there's things that I have to carry out. When you were in the mastermind and I was shutting down Quiet Well, I knew, unfortunately, probably like in March, but I had sold it as a year-long. So like February, I can't remember exactly when, but I was like, oh, I promised it through August.
Jenni: Mm-hmm.
Amber: I knew, but then I — out of integrity, right? Like I followed through on my commitments. I could have like refunded, I guess, if I wanted to. But I know pretty quick. And I act pretty quick, too. Like I was already making changes. So what about you?
Jenni: Yeah, I know. Almost right away, I'm closing down my group coaching program. So I've had it for two and a half years, which is a long time in like Internet land, right? There's 150 people in it. And about six months ago, I started to notice the like body tension. And then I like sat and meditated. And immediately, I would get this flash of like, close it down.
I'd be like, no, close it down. No, because there's more people involved in than just me. Right? So I really had to grapple with — I changed the model for a little bit. I brought in supporting coaches. And it just became very clear. I finally got an email from someone saying, it seems like you're not really invested in this program. And I was like, and there it is. You're calling me on it. It's time. It's time.
Amber: Yeah. Whenever my clients close it, I'm like, be prepared because your audience is going to start mirroring that back. So in my case, it's like people just stop showing up. I was like, yep.
Jenni: Yeah.
Amber: Even though they were showing up in other offers that I had, it was like my energy just like got drained. And so it's going to get me. I know.
Jenni: I always say it's like grief and relief, right? Like I announced last week that I'm closing this program. So I've really been toggling between the two. Like my body is really relieved. And I was bracing a little bit for the feedback, which has been largely nice. You know, like it's fine. Right. Everybody's like, cool. What are you building next? I want to build something. Right.
And there's a few people who are annoyed. But like the thinking about it is worse than actually doing it, I think, for most people. But it is brave. I mean, it's just every one of my clients has to do this when they come in. I always say that you have to make space in some way for the new thing that you want. Like I've never worked with someone who hasn't had to release something, compost it.
Amber: And someone like you, who you evolve really fast and all the time, you're a different human than you were probably like a couple of weeks ago. It makes sense. And actually, like it's keeping you sick if you keep the things that you need to let go of, because it's like your natural evolution is fast.
Jenni: I know. Yeah. And I think I said to someone the other day, I wish I didn't evolve as quickly, like from almost just like a messaging standpoint. It requires a lot of redos. But that is how I am. And if I block it, I mean, things stagnate real fast. Actually, my revenue will stagnate, my energy will stagnate, right? Like all those things. And so it is actually wise for me to evolve. That is my version of sustainability.
Amber: Okay. Say more about that, because I think that would be appealing. Like, what is your version of sustainability? I don't know if you said it that way. I don't know.
Jenni: I might not have said it that way in the book. Yeah. I tried to keep myself out of the book in terms of like my definitions of my model. And the very last chapter, I share like what the model is of my business, although hilariously. It's not bad anymore. We're six weeks out from book launch. I knew that was going to happen. I put something in there, like probably when you're reading this, it'll be different.
Amber: Exactly what happened to me in my book. My book is called Quiet Wealth. I sell my Quiet Wealth collective, which like doesn't exist anymore.
Jenni: I know. Well, Sustainable Soul Entrepreneurs Sustain is my group program. It's done now. It's fine. But I mean, I think everybody has their own version of sustainability. And that comes back to what your energetic makeup is. So we could talk about it in a I guess human design is one way that a lot of people would understand. So I'm a generator.
I have to be in alignment with myself and build things with a focused, you know, I have to know what I'm doing and I show up and I'm highly productive. That's my energetic signature. So, of course, I like evolving. Like even if you look at my gene keys, I have an evolution key, right? That's just me. So sustainability to me is you can be able to like run your business for a long time, right? It's prioritizing the long term over the short term.
And so for me, the long game is being able to evolve. That's what keeps me healthy. So I think there's like the question of what keeps you healthy? What keeps anybody listening to this healthy? That's different. It's different depending on your financial situation, caretaking, your health, who you are in each of us is different. So, I mean, how do you define sustainability? What keeps you doing?
Amber: Yeah. I mean, I would say it like if I was like speaking to a third grade, it works for you. It works the way that you want it to work. Because the other thing is like I've coached people out of their business. Very rarely. I don't want to scare my clients, but like I've coached like two people out of their business.
Jenni: Yeah. Oh, me too.
Amber: They quit their business. More than two. Okay, now see, that's interesting. Right. And it was like the highest choice for them to not be in business.
Jenni: Correct.
Amber: They feel amazing now.
Jenni: Yes. I've coached people to make less money.
Amber: Yeah. Or like turn down revenue or whatever. So I think it's pretty popular. I'm like the only thing that grows nonstop is like cancer. So now cyclical, I think, is more sustainable. That's the way that forests grow. That's the way that plants grow, gardens grow, all of that. So like it doesn't mean that you don't grow. It means that it's not on a spreadsheet. Like if you want the feeling of aliveness, the feeling of like not mechanical business, which I think is very like it's even on the cover of your book. Like it's so alive.
Jenni: I had a fine artist paint the cover of my book. It's so funny because it's in the business page on Amazon and it's all these like gold words. And I'm like, fine artist paints and with the invisible space. And I mean, it's just yeah, it's alive, though. Right. It's alive.
Amber: Yeah.
Jenni: Which I think that is what most people I encourage and probably you two want. We want to feel alive, present in our lives, connected to everything around us.
Amber: Yeah.
Jenni: Yeah. I love that. I think what you're saying, too, is that growth can be defined in a million different ways.
Amber: Amillion different ways. It's like the tree that's growing roots. I learned that today from you.
Jenni: But you can't see it.
Amber: It's so good. Like it's so good that that's when it grows the most. And by other world standards, it would be like that's when it's not growing. But like there's another way of looking at it. And I think that's what you do in the book, too, is like there's a whole other way of looking at what success means.
Jenni: I think I've had to really fight it with that one. You know, it's worth saying like I was a student. I was a cheerleader. I was like went to college and did all the things. I mean, I've always been the like oldest daughter, high achiever. And this happens a lot, I think, with people I coach. It stopped working like it stopped getting past my skin. You know, it was just like, cool. People are excited that I'm doing this thing. I remember I wrote a story for The New York Times.
It was on like page two of The New York Times. It was about the maternal brain. And my dad printed it out and he sent it to me and he framed it. And I was like, I didn't feel anything. Do you know what I mean? Like I was just like, this isn't it. You know, what's it is like deep conversations with people for me. But I was following the rules. I mean, the job that I got laid off from before I started my business, I was a New York Times employee.
Like I did it, you know, and it didn't feel like anything. And so I had to come up with what my own success metrics are. And I still do this. I used to have my money spreadsheet, my business, like how much money am I making? And then I had to add like six more line items. Do I feel good in my body? Did I go outside? Like all these. What does success actually look like? Because when I started my business, I would just use the revenue number as a proxy for success. And again, like it was like, okay, now what?
Amber: Well, and it's like I often have this conversation with clients, too. It's like you're not trying to build the next Amazon, the next Google, like you're trying to build something so different. You're trying to optimize for like your own creativity and your own fulfillment. And like revenue is part, but it's not everything.
Jenni: No, not everything. Yeah. A lot of my clients come from a background where they're so gripped on the money that like part of our work is to actually teach them how to just kind of feel neutral, just kind of look at it as like this is math. And it's like one part of everything I'm doing. So even my revenue spreadsheets that I give people, it's how much do you need to earn to have a really beautiful life?
Amber: Yeah.
Jenni: And then let's create a business that's based on that number.
Amber: Yeah.
Jenni: Not I'm going to have a six figure business. Like, cool. Why? I mean, great. But like…
Amber: My question is always like, and then what? I think what I think you demonstrate and live, which I like, I think we have like a lot in common in this way. I'm not waiting to like live the way that I want to live until I like hit something. That's another definition of sustainable. Like the way that I'm living now will be the way that I live whenever I hit whatever milestone.
Jenni: Yeah. I told you I'm building a new business essentially. And it's so interesting.
Amber: Actually.
Jenni: I mean we can talk about it. But that's why I said I'm in a cave of creation. But I mean, one of the things I've been grappling with is this business will be higher revenue just by the way it is built. And I think previously I was in much more of a kind of like hoarding mentality. Like this money is for me. And now like, you know, like my life is so beautiful. I'm good. I don't actually need more. I have enough. And so what happens then with the rest of the revenue is really an interesting question.
And so I've been working with the idea of stewardship and like where with solid intention does that money go? Do I want to employ other creatives? Do I want to like build funds for things? Do I want to donate to nonprofits? Like what would that look like? Feels so much healthier. But I don't think we're really taught that. We kind of go into it being like, gimme, gimme, gimme. Right. Like I need more to be safe when you and I both know safe is an inside job that money is part of in our culture. But it's just like more is not more.
Amber: So I studied psychology in college and I remember like the number that actually impacts yours. And this is so much lower than we think.
Jenni: Yes.
Amber: After you reach that number, like it actually doesn't impact what we think. Now it gives you options like you hiring people or like investing in things or like funding things that you care about. Like that's cool. Choice. I'm all about choice. Right. Choice feels like creativity is like safety is something very different. Like you said, that's an inside job.
Jenni: Yeah. When I first started working with Amber Lilyestrom, I think this was like our whole initial body of work was like I remember I had a 35K month and it just made me more stressed out. And I was like, okay okay. Because I kept saying, well, I'll feel better when I have this much margin. I'll feel better when I'm doing this. And it's like that didn't save me at all.
Amber: Before we hit record, you're like, I have 22 one on one clients.
Jenni: Yes.
Amber: And like, that's what we're working for.
Jenni: I know.
Amber: Right. And you're like, actually, this isn't what I want. I love my clients, but like this isn't what I want.
Jenni: It's just not sustainable.
Amber: Yeah. I want to look different. It's just interesting. Like the things we want often end up being like the contrast. We need to get the clarity about what's next.
Jenni: Yeah. And I think the thing I'm working with right now is sustainability for me right now is actually spaciousness, like a calendar that has space. If I'm going to build, if I'm going to write beautiful things, I actually need space. And 22 one to one clients, like that's not that. That is a lot of Voxer messages and that's a lot of calls. And so I said yes to that in the rush of the fall. And I actually don't regret it. But it's also you just learn, right? Like I'm like, okay, love the deep one to one work, but not at that scale.
Amber: Yeah. Like it's time to raise your price to that.
Jenni: Totally. I mean, this has been true for a long time. This is the last round of my prices being what they are because I have like super long wait lists. And I mean, it's why I'm building out something new, too, as I was saying to you, like I don't want it to be the Jenni Gritter show. I don't want it to be the like you come to just work with me.
I want it to be like you are part of a movement and an ethos and a way of moving in the world that exists beyond me. And it's funny because I've been teaching my clients that for a long time. They'll come in and be like, well, what’s my marketing? And I'm like, what's your movement? What are you inviting people into? So it's just time for me to do that. So, yeah, get it a little beyond myself.
Amber: I actually think this is hilarious that it came from Alex Hormozi because he's so linear.
Jenni: Yes. Yeah.
Amber: He said something that I thought a lot about. He's like, if you making money is only for you, you only make so much and never any. Right. Because we'll meet the need of like what you need to buy or whatever.
Jenni: Yes.
Amber: But the movement or like the vision, you'll actually end up, ironically, make a lot more because it's so much bigger than just you.
Jenni: Yeah. The universe gives you, I think, what you need to move that mission into the world.
I really believe that. And so it's like as I work with my income threshold, you know, the model I'm looking at is late next year. It'll be between 50 and 70K months. A, I have to be able to psychologically hold that and the tax bills and everything that comes along with that.
My nervous system needs to be able to hold that. But B, it's not mine. You know, it's like existing in this other ecosystem. But I do need to be a good steward of it. So that's the intention part of it. Makes me excited. I think I'm ready for something that way. And it moves that way.
Amber: You’re like, of course. Like it looks obvious to me. I've only known you for a little bit. But like you explaining your story, what I've seen you do, what I watch you do on social media or not social media, since you're taking a break. But it's like, yeah, this is the next progression.
Jenni: Yeah. It's funny. I had a client the other day be like, sometimes explain what you do to people. And I'm like, that's not really what she does. Like, she's not just a business coach. And I've said for years, like business coach feels like a weird way to describe myself.
Like, yeah, I help people with their businesses. But I do that because their businesses are like a spiritual practice, a way to be of service in the world. All these other reasons, I could care less about business practices the way everybody else does them. And so, yeah, this evolution makes a lot of sense.
Amber: I'm wondering if there's a time where we don't, people like you and I, like we don't use the word business. I mean, I have a business. And like, that's the layman's term that we use so people understand what we do. But I'd like to, like, it's not like I'm a business coach. It's like, I mean, yeah.
Jenni: We're like spiritual guides.
Amber: Yeah, for sure. But that's not what people want. They have a business. But like, probably a lot of your clients are like mine. Like, they don't even feel like it's a business. They feel like it's something different.
Jenni: I know because it's their work in the world. I mean, so I've been on this journey over the past year with my intuition and understanding that I'm highly intuitive. And what I say is I get like flashes of people's future when I'm sitting with them. So I coach that version, like not the one sitting in the chair, the one who's coming. And it collapses time because you just get to be her right away. And so that's why people have results. But that's because I'm intuitive and psychic.
And then we add strategy to that, which is almost the easy part at the end. Like, hey, no, here's your little linear plan. Off you go because you're recalibrated in your body. And so, yeah, I'm still learning how to talk about it. I now call myself an intuitive business strategist. So at least there's that part in there.
Amber: I mean, you can put intuitive and strategist in the same title and people like, mm-hmm.
Jenni: Yeah. I mean, that's my favorite thing, too, is like the inner play of all the different modalities. I teach a business remodeling program. Basically, it's an eight-week program. And we do like intuitive visualizations and strategy. And we have an art day where we like color.
And like, it's my favorite because it gets people out of linearity into building something that's like so cool and resonant that then the messaging and the marketing is easier because they're building something that's like fun and interesting. I feel like you do that, too. You're like me. We like to build interesting offers that are a little different.
Amber: Yeah, I think that's different. Do you know Scott Oldsworth?
Jenni: No.
Amber: You would love him. Anyway, I had a call with him once and he was like, it's a strange thing to like channel strategy, but I think that's what I've been doing the whole time. He's like, I don't come up with a strategy. I channel it.
Jenni: I mean, that is how I'm starting to understand it is that I get like, I had a client say to me the other day, she's like three months in, I think, to a six-month thing. She's like, you knew all this when we started. I'm like, of course I did. And she's like, you said it to me and I didn't believe you. Yeah, because I was like, you're going to do circles. There's a thing. You're a voice coach. And she's like, no, I'm not. And then three months in, it just took that long to integrate.
And so, I mean, that's the magic also, I think, of like learning to stand behind our power and just say the thing that we see is real. Because as you said, I can see your power lean as day, even when you can't see it. That's my job. So, it'll be interesting what I decide to call myself. Who knows? Our titles get to change every six weeks if we're changing every six weeks.
Amber: What am I feeling today? What's interesting is everything exists in relationship to something else, right? Like I love learning about this in, I don't even know what I was reading. It was not business related. But you cannot exist without being in relationship, right? Like if we didn't have relationship, we wouldn't know what it was.
Jenni: That's how we know ourselves, yeah.
Amber: Ourselves, right? So like sometimes we're like, I don't even know who I am. I'm like, you can't know who you are sitting in your room trying to intuit it. Some flashes will come, but it's always going to be in relationship to something else. You're not going to like see yourself in a white cloud of nothingness.
You're going to see yourself teaching or coaching or with your kids or writing, right? You're going to see it in relationship to, which I think I would add that to something that you do a really good job of. Like you have a relationship with your business. You have a relationship with the future that you see. You have a relationship with the clients, with your gifts, right? Like everything is in relationship with something else.
Jenni: Thank you. Yeah, it feels true. I mean, everything I teach is relationship driven, right? When people say like, I had a $70,000 launch a couple months ago. And they're like, how? I'm like, I've been building these relationships with these people for literal years. Like there's no, push a button, get a client. It's like, no, I like know these people, right?
Amber: Like, well, isn't it because you optimize your email nurture sequence amazingly?
Jenni: I'm so anti-funnel. I can't even, like, I don't want to be in a funnel. No, I don't want to be in a funnel. I mean, all about a welcome sequence. It's fine. But like, this is true hard to hurt relationship and it's not scaly, right? It's not like millions of people and that's fine. I think what's interesting is as I move into building this other model, there is a way in which more people are going to come into it.
And so that's another tension I sit with is how do I keep the intimacy in the relationship building while it grows? Because I've pretty specifically kept my business at this size for a long time. And so probably you same, right? Like I don't want it to railroad my life. I love working 25 hours a week.
Amber: I like being anonymous.
Jenni: Yes, I know.
Amber: It's funny because, like, people who know me, it's like they know me and they're like, oh, that's Amber.
Jenni: Right. Probably you're really good at what you do. Yeah.
Amber: Yeah. And like in real life, like no one knows who I am. And I love that, right? There's a trade-off because if you have the vision of something bigger, like you have, it's not even a trade-off in a bad way. It's like the tree that was like a little sapling trades that version of itself for the tree that can produce fruit.
Jenni: Totally. And I think keeping my values intact while it grows is going to be sort of my next iteration. Like what does a sustainable scale look like? And is scale even the right word? I don't know. Right. Like that's going to be interesting.
I keep saying to my husband, like, I will not give up my peace for this. The only models you see is people running these like big coaching and education companies and they get kind of like wrapped up in the whole whirlwind. I live on a acre of land in the woods. I want to like sit crisscross applesauce in my little pants and like build a dynasty while like sipping a cup of tea. I don't want to get on airplanes all the time.
Amber: What a time to be alive because like, that's the future. I think that's the future.
Jenni: I know. It's fascinating. Yeah. I think it's cool. And I mean, I told you the name of the new business I'm building is called the World Builders. So I'm at the part where I know of like what is the world I'm building so that you can all come in and build your own worlds within that. But it's all of these things, all of these values line things of can it be big and not squish me? It means, I mean, need more help.
Amber: Or like what you said, like, can it be big and still intimate?
Jenni: I think so. I do a lot of, I mean, you can do it too. I love like cohort programs, 10 people. I love building communities. My communities, everybody knows each other. It's very special. And so it's just also putting the right people in the right seats to moderate those programs and be part of that who can still create the intimacy. So.
Amber: Yeah. So I’ve learned that. I've seen that with my clients. Like I had a client visit another client who isn't local to her, like they were traveling and like she visited her in her gallery. And I was like, they're carrying the torch of intimacy.
Jenni: Exactly. I mean, this is collective leadership, right? I think we think about leadership as hierarchical, like I'm Jenni and I'm at the top of the company and that's not what this is. It's like a web. And so that's the only way it can work and not be too much on my shoulders. So I'm thinking a lot about how to intentionally build that environment.
I mean, I don't know about you, but I often have to teach that at the start of my cohorts. Like what does it look like to be a collective, to like not just listen to me, to help each other, support each other? We just haven't learned that. We only have these like linear male models of some dude at the top and that's not.
Amber: Or like school where you went and sat in a classroom and they lectured and you took notes.
Jenni: External, right?
Amber: I imagine like you with like a fire and women around the circle, all like sharing with, it's so different. It's such a different look.
Jenni: So different. I mean, that's exactly it. It's like women who are sitting around a fire and then each of them goes and like has their own circle around the fire. And then like they're kind of like these little pods all over the world. And then there's ways in which we come together. So it's very like in the mud, dirt, as I told you, it's like pine trees, moss, shadows, mist, right?
So I'm working on the branding right now. It's fun, but it is cool. I mean, this came in as a download, a vision a couple times and I was like, I don't know what that is. I'm not into it. And it was called the School of Power when it came in and I was, I don't get it. And then I was like, okay, no, it is a school structure basically, but not a school like anything we knew.
It's almost like the unschooled, non-linear, the like no more grades, the collective and then power. I mean, it's really just about stepping into your own inner knowing. So there'll be a lot of programming around money, visibility, like these ways that we tactically step into our power, but from an energetic level. So yeah, it's cool, but it takes a while sometimes. I want people listening to hear that. Like it's been a couple of years and it wasn't the right time yet.
Amber: I've said this a lot through the years, like ideas come to us because you're the one meant to steward it. But stewardship means like you've been stewarding it the whole time, which is kind of fun to look back on. You have been. It wasn't timing, but…
Jenni: I was, like the offer, the mastermind I launched is called the council. That is the core of the structure of the new business. Right. And I didn't know that it came in just as like a download, scribbled it on paper, opened it up the next week, had 10 women sign up, $70,000 lunch. Cool. Great. Wow. And it was like, obviously that's why that worked because that's like the building block to the thing. So you're right. It has been stewarded the whole time and I've just been sort of lightly holding it while I do the other things. That's how it works.
Amber: I want to hear, this is just interesting based on your career evolution, the shift from like solopreneur to
Jenni: Larger business.
Amber: Something else.
Jenni: Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, for so long, and I think this also has to do with the stage of parenting that I'm in. How old are your girls now?
Amber: My youngest is five, so five, seven, and nine.
Jenni: Okay. So mine are three and six. And as you know, those first three years, like there's no way I was going to build anything giant. Even now it's a little, like my daughter's literally homesick today, but my husband is in a really flexible job and we've worked a lot over the past few years in our family ecosystem.
Amber: Yeah.
Jenni: To create space for me to step in more fully. And so I've known something bigger is coming. I mean, our coach Amber used to say like, Jenni, you're using pinky finger. Like what if you used your whole body? Like meaning like I'm not using my whole power. And it was on purpose because I was caretaking and…
Amber: You were using your body to take care of children.
Jenni: Like I was tired. I'm still tired. Right. But so like that season, being a solopreneur was the exact right fit. I was keeping it at a certain size and shape. I didn't want any complexity. I should say I've run a business with someone else before. So I know like I had a business partner and that ended poorly. It was really complicated. So I came into the season being like clean, simple.
Yeah. Simple offer, sweet. Literally just me and you talking on, you know, one-on-one on Zoom.
Right. And it worked so beautifully for that season. And then when the book came out, the amount of attention that started coming my way, I knew that was going to happen. But it surprised me a little, I think. And it invited me into some really big rooms. I went to this summit in D.C. with like a hundred top female news moderators and podcasts. And like the level of power of those women in that room intimidated me. And then I realized I was one of them.
Amber: Yeah.
Jenni: And so I think it's been a slow trickle of like I knew, but I think I'm taking the ethos with me of solopreneurship, if that makes sense. Like I'm not interested in having a huge team. I'd rather have supporting coaches and contractors again with the web. I'm really not interested in complexity for complexity's sake. And so even my marketing, I would like to be clean. So I think I'm asking a lot of questions about what's actually essential and what isn't as I build this.
Which is sort of gut-checking. Yes. Like gut-checking with myself because I know what it feels like for it to be simple. And I don't want to give that up. But I mean, like my business is like so funny because it's working more beautifully than it ever has, right? It's like 25K months working 25 hours a week with dream clients. Like I'm sorry, what? Like what's better, right? And yet I'm evolving within that, but I don't want to lose the value system and some of those core tenants, if that makes sense.
Amber: That just feels like infused with wisdom because when I've seen people scale, like a lot of times they have to like kind of backtrack to get back to simple because they feel complex.
Jenni: Correct. And I'm coming from simplicity being a core value. I mean, to the point of like, so I'm having someone do my branding right now. I'm just trading coaching for the branding. Like I'm literally spending $0. Like I'm not taking out a business loan to set this up. I could do it that way. I could go get funding, venture funding. I don't want to, right?
Amber: You don't have to.
Jenni: Yeah. Like can you build an empire without following those rules? I think so. I mean, that's the whole point of why I also think I'm meant to do this because I'm so experiment-y. I'm like, sure, let's try it. Let's do it a different way.
Amber: And you become fearless too. Like I think that's a word we don't use a lot, but like intuition makes you fearless because you're like…
Jenni: Correct.
Amber: Use my intuition to help me know what the next step is.
Jenni: Yeah. I keep saying to my husband, like, is this delusional? And he's like, yeah, but I fully trust you. And I'm like, I know I trust it too. Like I have no doubt it's going to work. That gives me goosebumps to say, but like I don't.
Amber: It’s only delusional because you don't see it in the 3D yet. I bet you don't feel delusional. I think you're worried. Like even your husband's probably like, it's not because I know you. Like it's delusional to people who went to Harvard Business School and are trying to like analyze what you're doing, but it's not delusional to you or your clients.
Jenni: No. And so many of my clients, when I brought this up, they're like, I have chills. When can I sign up? Like I'm a world builder. I want to come, you know?
Amber: And they don't even know what the offer is!
Jenni: They literally don't know what it is. They don't know what it is. Right. Like I've just sort of dribbled it. Normally I build in public and this one I'm not. I'm really like keeping it close to the chest for a little bit on purpose because it like that's how it wants to be in the darkness. Right. So and you hear me saying this, like I am in relationship with the idea. Like I am not the idea.
Amber: Yeah.
Jenni: It feels important to say same with the book. Like I'm not the book. The book is its own entity that I'm a steward of. And so I also think that helps with the sense of responsibility and the like ego check. And I do a lot of ritual and meditation where I like meet the idea, like I see it and I ask it questions, which might sound really woo to people, but it's really effective. I have my clients do this too.
Amber: So good because that's actually how it works. It's like an artist, right? Where something moves through them or time to like, yeah, I did that. But I think then they lose it because they lost the actual like magic of what was happening. Right. Something was moving through you. And it's like you're the steward. I love the word steward a lot for a lot of things, but like you're stewarding it and you're stewarding it well. It's kind of like, did you read the book, Big Magic?
Jenni: Yeah, I read the book. Yeah.
Amber: Right. Yeah. Hey, do you want to do this?
Jenni: The idea comes in is like, are you a willing participant?
Amber: Yeah.
Jenni: I'm very obsessed with root words, which you will get if you read the book. But the word creativity comes from the word creare, which means to whole, to be a part of whole. And so it's why I think creativity is like a spiritual practice. It's why business is a spiritual practice when you're doing it this way, because you are knitting yourself into the whole. And to me, at least it's grounding.
It's like good for my anxiety to build, because I often teach people like when you're in scarcity, build something, create something because it's opposite energy with the like enoughness, deep enoughness. And like when you're meeting those creations, like how cool. I have my meditations a lot where it's like, okay, what's the quality of that offer idea thing you're meant to build into the world? What's the color? What's the smell, the taste? And out of that, their offers are so much more resonant.
Amber: Yeah. And so much more alive. It's not like a computer generated image.
Jenni: It's not a chat GBT offer, which we could talk about endlessly, but a few have come across my deal lately. Yeah. Not that.
Amber: Not that. It's like one of a kind. World Builders feels one of a kind to me.
Jenni: Yeah, I think so. I've never seen anything like it.
Amber: I don't even know fully what it is.
Jenni: I know it's a school, but we're all going to go to school together. I keep seeing people like the collective community space in the middle. I think it's just homeroom. But it's like the homeroom we all wished we had because it's for the neurodivergent, multi-passionate, like the weirdos, the ones who felt like outsiders, the ones who are building things that are like unique. It's for us.
Amber: Creatives, yeah. It's so good. I could talk to you forever. This was amazing. Quickly, aside from all the amazingness that you just shared, do you feel like I missed something that you wanted to say or wanted to bring?
Jenni: I always like to say about this book and my work, like it's possible for you too. I used to fight with the idea of relatability. Like people would always say, oh, you're so relatable. And I was like, I don't want to be relatable. I want to be a leader. But I think the relatability is so important because anybody can build the way I've built and the way you've built. And yes, it takes thinking in a different way. I think it takes some bravery, but for you to be in your own lane, creating something that works for you, it's usually a relief. It's less energy expenditure.
You know, you aren't pretending anymore. You're not trying to do it the way everybody else is telling you. So I hope this feels like a big permission slip. And also to hear that evolution is normal and good. And it's less complex, but like really healthy. I just like to say that out loud, that like it's not just a me thing. I have hundreds and hundreds of people I work with who are proof that it's not just a me thing.
Amber: And I'll add to that too, you're not saying you can do it like me. You're not like, yeah, you can write a book and launch world builder type offers too. It's you could do what is something only you can do, but like whatever it is you're imagining or seeing or getting glimpses of, you can bring to life.
Jenni: Yes, it's possible. Yeah. I mean, the last thing I'll say is that we're watching a lot of our existing systems shatter and not work anymore. And I really think the people who are building what comes next are the people using their creativity and building outside the box and not following the rules.
And I think it's going to come from the caregivers and the service workers and the soul connected ones. And so this work also feels like, I don't want to say deeply urgent, but like really, really, it feels very important that you step into your gnosis, your like connection with your inner knowing, because that's where I think the roadmap comes from.
And that to me is a hopeful thing, right? Like it's really easy to get really like buried and scared. And so to me, this is how I find the light in the dark, right? Is the like watching people build things that actually are deeply human, creative, intuitive. That's the good stuff, you know, and that's the paving the way for what comes. That's the world building. So yeah, it just feels essential to me. So I want more of it while I do this work, while you do this work.
Amber: Yeah. Well, that's why I wanted you on because a lot of people will resonate with your message, but not just what you say, with how you live. So yeah. It's a feeling.
Jenni: It's a feeling. Thank you for having me on. I appreciate it. I feel like our work has so much goodness.
Amber: I know.
Jenni: Wrapped up in it. Yeah.
Amber: Where can they, it'll be linked, but speak it too.
Jenni: Yes. I was going to say, go find the book. Yeah, go find the book. Sustainable Solopreneur. I also teach, like I said, the Create program is an eight-week intensive that's literally building models like this. And that starts in January. So whenever people are listening to this, yeah, we'll put a link there. There's some time, but that would be a good one to look into if you're like, oh, I want an experience like this because it's very…
Amber: And color.
Jenni: Yeah. You get to do visualizations. You get to be like witchy and strategic and linear. And it's eight weeks of kind of like deep building energy, which again, with the hopefulness, it just is really great to be surrounded by people who are in creation vibes. So yeah, I'll give you the links for those.
Amber: Cool. Well, thank you for your time. Thank you for your wisdom. You're amazing.
Jenni: Thank you, Amber.
