Hey you guys, welcome back to the podcast. Today is a special one because I'm interviewing my friend and old college roommate, Jenessa Taylor, who founded Brightly Social. And it's so fun because we didn't think we would be small business owners, obviously, not very many people can predict this path, but it's been super fun to watch her grow her company and just share all the things about business ownership and content creation and client work and all this stuff.
And I invited her on the podcast to talk about Instagram specifically. You'll hear more about what she does with her company, but I love how she teaches Instagram. I love how she manages Instagram. And so I wanted to have a conversation with her. And it is so good. We talk about nurturing your audience.
And growing a meaningful following, what's underrated versus what's overrated on Instagram, how to talk to the one, how to write good hooks. I just know if you are on Instagram, you are going to love this episode. So without further ado, welcome to my interview with Jenessa Taylor.
Amber: Hi Jenessa, welcome to the podcast!
Jenessa: Thanks for having me.
Amber: So fun fact. This is the second time we're recording this episode, unfortunately. We recorded a bomb episode about Instagram, like anti-mind drama on Instagram. And something happened with the file, so we got to meet up again.
Jenessa: So apparently this one's going to be even better.
Amber: Even better. And fun fact number two is we're recording in person, which is awesome! Okay, so I would love you to describe just so my audience can get to know you, your story because you're a small business owner, but you have experience in the Instagram space. And so I'd love to hear about what you're up to now with Brightly Social. But also what led you here and kind of your origin story.
Jenessa: Yeah, I've been in the social media world for a decade now, which is crazy.
Amber: A decade?
Jenessa: Yeah.
Amber: Wow, that's cool.
Jenessa: And after five years of working in this space for a lot of other people, I had my twin girls and I decided to start freelancing on my own. And freelancing just steamrolled into… Brightly. So, Brightly is a social media management, Instagram coaching, and brand design company that I get to run with my sister-in-law. And it is the best.
Amber: It's like magical.
Jenessa: I really love it.
Amber: Yeah, you guys are killing it too. It's so fun. And before that, when you were freelancing and helping other people, like, did you know you were going to start your own company at some point?
Jenessa: No.
Amber: Oh, okay. That's kind of fun.
Jenessa: I was doing this because it fit into my schedule with my kids, and I really liked it. It was fulfilling and made some money. And then two years ago, my plate got a little too full with work. And instead of saying no, I said, yes. And started hiring people. And it worked.
Amber: So cool. What I love about what we're going to talk about, cause most of my audience I like to think of as like a one person business or coaches, designers, solopreneurs, people who are like using Instagram super organically, which I know is like part of your genius wheelhouse.
Jenessa: Yeah.
Amber: And so I'm really excited to talk about engagement and posting and like the whole mindset behind being a normal human on social media as well as like some helpful, like, we call them hacks or something.
Jenessa: That's probably good.
Amber: Tips and tricks that I think will help people like practical, like you can use this today. Let's jump in with a mind drum first cause you coach, you also like teach Instagram. Is that a great way to say it? How would you describe it? Do you teach Instagram?
Jenessa: I would say that I coach and then I help people create strategies that fit with their business and with how much they want to show up on Instagram.
Amber: Okay. So my first question is why do you think people hate Instagram?
Jenessa: It's because they let Instagram run the show.
Amber: Okay.
Jenessa: I think a lot of the time we're like, oh my gosh. So and so said I have to post every day this many things with this kind of reel and do this. And there's a lot of pressure. And there's a lot of comparison on Instagram. So it's just can be a mental health kind of landmine.
Amber: Totally.
Jenessa: But when you take control of Instagram and you set your Instagram boundaries and you decide how you want to show up in this space and who you're showing up for, it puts the ball back in your court. You have the power here, not Instagram.
Amber: Let's say there's someone who's like, has a love hate relationship with it. They like the idea of it. They like the potential of it. But they find themselves like doom scrolling. You know what I mean? Like, where they're like, oh, so and so's up to this. Like, I'm not as pretty as her. I'm not as skinny as her. I'm not as rich as her. Like, truly like that trap. I don't really have that, so it's interesting, but I know a lot of people do.
Jenessa: So, this is where I would say stop looking sideways. This is where I would say when you're looking at what other people are doing in this space, you're losing the power that you have, like, the genius that you bring to Instagram.
Amber: So, if your message is stop looking sideways, where do people look? Is it cheesy? Like within, but like truly like, is that?
Jenessa: Truly. I think we, I actually see you post about this, that sometimes you're consuming instead of creating. So if you are getting lost looking at what the quote unquote competition is doing or what other businesses are doing on Instagram, I would recommend taking a little break and creating completely outside of Instagram.
Write a post just on a Google Doc. Record a video that you might turn into a reel within Instagram later, but just create yourself. And lean into what your strengths are, because when you're looking at what someone else's strengths are, you don't see any of your own. And you totally have them. You have a message, an offer, and whatever your business is, that is uniquely yours. So you gotta step back from what other people are doing, and really hone in on what you have to offer your audience, and your potential clients.
Amber: Yeah, I think what you described, the stepping back, is so important from a creativity standpoint too, not just like Instagram, but in general, like showing up for your business in a very true to you way requires that space away.
Jenessa: One hundred percent. And I have set a boundary personally that when I'm in a negative emotional headspace, I can't post that day. I really feel like I bring that negativity into my content. I don't know if it's like scientifically proven. I really should run the analytics on this, but like my posts don't perform as well because I'm not bringing what really is my strengths and my message to my audience very well.
Amber: Yeah I love that. I might play with that idea. Like almost like a check in with yourself. Like it might bringing not like a judgmental, but like, do I feel good about this? Am I in a good headspace to be on this app and to like publish content today? Cause I also think that speaks to, I think a lot of people feel rushed. Like, oh, I got to get to 10K followers or a 100K followers or whatever. Right, like the metrics that are very…
Jenessa: I call them vanity metrics.
Amber: Vanity metrics, yeah. Because it looks sexy, but I know we're going to go deep into this, but it's not required to actually have business success to be like popular.
Jenessa: Louder. Yes, I often think, what would you do differently on Instagram if you didn't have a vanity metric stamped on your account?
Amber: Yeah.
Jenessa: If you weren't running towards reaching X amount of followers or that quote unquote growth, what would really matter on Instagram?
Amber: Yeah.
Jenessa: And it would be the conversations and the connections you're creating in the space. That's really what matters here.
Amber: Yeah. And one of the things that we wanted to talk about was the power of like the one person. So, I think that this is all related because when we think about vanity metrics, like we're not thinking about the one person. That you might end up being like, either like business best friends with, or they're going to hire you or they're just a good connection like a colleague. All are valuable. And it doesn't matter if it's like a hundred thousand of them. It's like, you really only need a handful of those kinds of people in your life.
Jenessa: When you're doing a high ticket one on one service businesses. Yeah, you don't need a hundred thousand people following.
Amber: So, tell me about your philosophy about the one.
Jenessa: So the root of this comes from, I don't focus on growing my following or my client's followings. I focus on creating community and nurturing that community. I think it's a mindset shift. And then you take it a step further from instead of focusing on the entire audience, you speak to one. So this comes into just simple things like speaking with you and yours to your audience while you're writing. But also it comes into how you message. When you are speaking in an auditorium to a whole lot of people, you speak totally differently than when you're sitting across the table with a friend or a colleague or someone that you want to work with.
It is a different conversation. It's a different mindset. And when you speak to someone's struggles and problems and individual struggles and problems, you create really compelling content because the problem that Jane is experiencing is the problem that probably all of your ideal clients are facing. There's so much more power when you write to one unique person.
Amber: Yeah. It's like the specificity.
Jenessa: Yes.
Amber: I think we talked about this on our take one. But like Taylor Swift marketing. Did we talk about this?
Jenessa: I don't know.
Amber: Okay. Like, you know how her songs are very specific. Like there's a lot of...
Jenessa: Yes her lyrics are like…
Amber: Right? Where it's like dancing in the refrigerator light at midnight or something like that, right? I've never done that, but I still love her music and it speaks to my soul because it's very like real. I think that's like when you talk about Jane and how, whatever, like she's really going through, because I think there's a line that I really like the personal is universal. So it's like the more personal you can get by speaking to the one, actually the more it will resonate with other people as well.
Jenessa: Yes. Because when you were telling Jane's specific story or you're speaking to it, it might not be my story, but I see myself in it because I'm like, oh my goodness, I'm struggling with this a little differently, but it's painful and it's hard. You have the solution.
Amber: Yeah. Do you have any like prompts or tips or tricks? Like how would you feel like you know Jane's problem?
Jenessa: What do you mean by that?
Amber: So like, I don't love the word pain points and I know you don't either, but like what they're struggling with, like how would you spend time figuring out what those things are?
Jenessa: I come up with a lot of content for my own page and speaking to the pain points that my audience is feeling through the conversations I'm having in my comment section, through DMs, through my actual coaching sessions. I walk away from coaching sessions and I'm like, I have three posts.
Amber: Yes.
Jenessa: Because here are the very specific problems someone brought to me. And it's a perfect way to write. I mean, obviously I wouldn't reveal who people are.
Amber: Right.
Jenessa: There's a way to create content around that, but your business and the people you work with are handing you what they're struggling with all the time.
Amber: I feel so validated.
Jenessa: All the time, I'm walking away and I'm like, here's three post ideas. Write them down really, really quick so don't forget.
Amber: Yeah. Cause I have like a running notes app for my coaching calls and I'm like, that would make a really good podcast or that's like good post or like I'll get off a session and literally make a post. Cause I'm like, that is relevant.
Jenessa: Yes. If you're feeling like you're struggling to come up with content, dive into what you're working on with your clients or what people are talking about in your space on Instagram. People are bringing up questions and having controversial debates about stuff and you get to pick your stance, your opinion, and share your tips.
Amber: Yeah, that's so good. So, started this conversation with like, the one. But let's talk about something else, like as you're trying to reach that person, like can we talk about perfectionism?
Jenessa: Ooh, it's hefty. Instagram's a minefield for that as well. So, a lot of the time I think Instagram, because it is, you're basically just showcasing yourself, especially as a small business owner. We get bogged down and paralyzed at the idea of we need to create incredible content. And I find myself repeating over and over again to clients that I don't ever aim for A+ content because it is paralyzing.
You will never press post because you'll look at it and go, ooh, that's a weird angle. Ooh, I should have changed the lighting. Ooh, there's a typo. When really B plus content is really all you need to aim for here because your audience is never looking at your content as closely as you are analyzing your content.
Amber: It’s so true.
Jenessa: I just put up a reel where I posted like, I aim for B+ content because did you notice? And I put all the things I noticed that were a flaw within my reel. And comment after comment was like, I've never even, I didn't see anything, I didn't know any of that. And I'm like, how did you not see that? Everyone personally looks at their own content and analyzes it way the hell out.
Amber: Yeah, that's so true.
Jenessa: Take a step back. Think of how long you watch someone else's reel or read their graphic or their caption. And you are skimming it. That's just the reality of Instagram. It's okay. And it's great to post B+ content because your B+ content to me looks like an A.
Amber: Yeah, that's so good. There's just like a general statement. It's like people aren't thinking about you as much as you think that they are. It's a great reality check. It’s like, oh yeah like I think I just need to post it. On my computer, it says send it. People in my group program. I quote it all the time because it's like, just send it.
Because I think especially for people who have never created content, I feel like we can maybe separate it out even. Like people who are brand new business owners, who have never published content as a creator, right? Maybe they've posted pictures of their family, like on Facebook back in the day or whatever. But like when you're a creator, when you're doing it as like top of funnel for your business, it's a different stressor. And so if someone was brand new, I think it's better to be publishing. Do you agree with that? Okay. I was like, maybe we disagree. Getting it out.
Jenessa: It’s press post. I firmly believe in not having a million reels drafts that are just sitting there waiting. It's wasted time. It's wasted energy and one post that you might see as imperfect might build a connection and lead to a client today. Hesitating on it is only inhibiting you.
Amber: So good. So what about someone who's been in the game for a little bit? They've been publishing for a year or two. I feel like this is your zone of genius with analytics and data.
Jenessa: So your question is how did they post perfectly? Not perfectly?
Amber: Yeah how do they do it exactly perfectly yeah.
Jenessa: Don’t do it perfectly!
Amber: How did they achieve meaningful milestones with Instagram?
Jenessa: That's a good one. Okay. So I would say when you've been at the game for about a year, there are some strategic things you can do. I really love looking back on what's worked well and resonated with your audience. So this is when I would take a little bit of time to look through your insights and figure out what messages are hitting your audience.
You can tell this by the trends that you find in your top performing reels or your top performing carousel posts. What messages and content types does your audience love? They might love the way you do original audio reels, just kind of sharing a controversial opinion. They might love an inspirational piece of content. Lean into what your audience with and loves to see from you. Recreate it, repurpose it. Just keep utilizing what's working. You don't have to recreate always. You can lean on your strengths and you can already know what the strength is off of your insights.
Amber: Yeah. I think that one of the natural evolutions, cause like when I was beginning, I didn't look at my data. It was a mind twist for me to do that. I created more doubt, but as I grew myself and I had started having like success, there was an appropriate time for me to start looking at my insights and what is resonating. Like I checked my podcast downloads, like which one and do more of what's already working.
This is when I hired you for my Instagram audit. Shout out. Because I was like, I want to know. It wasn't going to send me freaking out or like doubting myself, right? And I think that's part of like, as you grow your experience, data starts to matter.
Jenessa: Well on the thing to lean into with your insights as well is to only pick a couple of things that matter to you. So I really care about my saves and my shares because if someone has saved my post, it had a lot of value. They wanted to look back on it. So that is a huge green light for me. And I also really look at shares because shares is a fundamental root of growth on Instagram right now. If your content is being shared, why? Was it relatable? Awesome. Lean into that. Was it really, really valuable? Because you had 10 great educational tips? Then, awesome. Lean into that.
Amber: Okay, here's a question for you. What would you say to someone who's very consistent? Like they're always posting, but they're not getting the results that they want. Because, you know, the definition of insanity like is doing the same thing over and over again. How would you gently coach someone on like, it's time to change things up on how you're doing it because it's not working.
Jenessa: If something's not working, you feel like you're hitting a wall. That's when you need to step outside of your norm and experiment. And it's uncomfortable to experiment. A lot of people are uncomfortable showing their faces, or recording reels, or doing something that might be just out of their comfort zone. Sending a voice message DM. But when you try those things out, you might really find something that works.
So I wouldn't say throw away your entire strategy and start a new one. No, I would say let's maybe try a collaboration post. Maybe go live next week. Maybe consider if there's another social media platform that could find your audience a little better. Maybe they're all living on Pinterest for you. There's other ways to reach your audience through social media than what you've always done.
Amber: Yeah. How do you feel about emulation? Like you emulate accounts that you like.
Jenessa: So if it's emulation and not envy, I'm here for it. I think there's a big difference between looking at someone's account.
Amber: I love that distinction.
Jenessa: Adam Grant talks about this, where when you are looking at what someone else is doing, comparing yourself to that, everyone does it. Totally normal. But when it turns into envy and then negative feelings towards that person, we've taken it down the wrong path. But when it turns into something, oh, I admire this. Here's something that they're really good at. I wonder if I could also be good at that. And I think there's a fine line between completely ripping off someone else's content and being inspired by what someone's doing and trying it out yourself.
Amber: Yes. I really like the word synthesis. I was thinking about this, like people have like their top three to five people that they're like obsessed with online. You know what I mean?
Jenessa: Elise Myers. Yeah.
Amber: Yeah, oh my gosh. Exactly. So like when you see her, you stop and watch it. Or if you haven't seen it in a while, you go seek her out. I have people like that too. And then there's like the next tier down, which is like, I like them and I want to see it, but I'm not like, where's their post, you know?
And then there's everyone else I follow, which is usually like networking clients or like connections that I want to keep on a personal nature, but not necessarily like they're a creator I love. And so, when I think about emulating, I think about the top tier, like you know what I mean?
Jenessa: Oh, okay. I like that.
Amber: And I take a bunch of ideas. Combine it in my brain. This is like what I do all day is like taking ideas. And then like, how would I say this?
Jenessa: Yes. It's not just, oh, I love what they did. I'm going to do exactly that. It's ooh, I love what they did. How does this fit in with my messaging, my audience, my business? It's two steps.
Amber: It's so good. Okay, we're going to go into the series of underrated and overrated because I'm really excited.
Jenessa: Oh it’s my favorite.
Amber: But I feel like what's underrated is having those meaningful connections so that when they see your post, it means something to them. It's not just a random post. So engagement, relationships, DMs, like non-needy networking.
Jenessa: Non-needy networking.
Amber: Let's host a masterclass.
Jenessa: I want to so bad. That’s a perfect name.
Amber: Yeah. Okay let’s jump into the underrated and overrated. Okay. So let's start with underrated. What do you think are some of the most underrated things to be doing and ways of using Instagram?
Jenessa: Your Instagram stories, number one.
Amber: Okay. Say more.
Jenessa: Your warmest audience is watching your stories. It's usually about 7 percent of your following are pretty consistently watching, and those are the people that are considering buying from you, that are truly learning from you, that love the things you're saying.
Your Instagram story audience is gold. This is a beautiful place to sell your offers, even more than your timeline. This is a beautiful place to actually look at who is watching your stories, and go and seek them out on their pages. Create conversations and direct messages. These people are engaging with you and are watching you for a reason.
So first and foremost, I always harp about Instagram long story audiences. Second is collaboration posts. So after this, Amber and I are going to have a collaboration post because we created a podcast together. This is great for us to both chat with both of our audiences and figure out where they overlap and you can maybe find a network through Instagram this way.
Collaboration posts are simple. It cuts your creation time down in half, theoretically, if you are working with someone else to create a post. And it expands your reach. And the third underrated thing is to ask yourself one question every time before you post. Would I share this? If you're creating a post and you look at it and you go, huh, it's kind of boring.
Your audience is going to think the same thing. Okay. So the one question I always ask myself before I post for myself or a client is, would I share this?
Amber: I think that that's like a self awareness thing. Do I like this content? Would I share this content? Or am I just like posting to post?
Jenessa: It's a hard place to be.
Amber: It is. And I think there's a lot of people who teach that though.
Jenessa: Are there underrated things that you found on Instagram as a small business owner?
Amber: DM conversations, just in general. Like I don't think I've ever signed a client ever that I didn't have like a trace record of DMs.
Jenessa: Ooh.
Amber: Okay. That's not true. Okay I lied. Some referrals came through like email or a text message or something like that.
Jenessa: Okay. But if they came through Instagram… a DM.
Amber: If they came through Instagram, I had had multiple DMs with them, sometimes over a period of months and years.
Jenessa: I agree with that. Like someone that I literally DMed a year ago and had an awesome conversation with just turned into a client. Like it had been a full year.
Amber: Yes. It's not uncommon.
Jenessa: Instagram's a long game.
Amber: It is a long game. Okay. That's like another underrated way to use Instagram is long term. This is not a get rich quick app.
Jenessa: Everyone likes to look at it as an overnight success.
Amber: I know they want it to be, but it's not. And it's not even like, I talked to you about my friend who has like 40,000 followers, 50,000 followers and making zero money. And when she found out how much money I make with my 2000 something audience, she was shocked. Because how she learned Instagram was like, if you have 40,000 followers, you could make about 30 grand a month or whatever, just from the followers or whatever. I don't even remember the statistics, but that idea that followers create money. And that is not true.
Jenessa: Especially in the one on one space. Followers don't equal any set metric or truth or money earnings or measurement of success.
Amber: So would you say, we can move into overrated. Do you think number of followers is overrated? So easy.
Jenessa: So deeply. Yes. And this is one of the things that I think will set you free on Instagram. If you stop looking at your business and measuring the success of your business by your Instagram followers, it is so freeing to be in the space and create and communicate and create relationships. You can have a wildly successful business. I have worked with people who have 500 followers and are earning so much money.
Okay. And then I have worked with someone who had 30,000 followers and could not get into the green, could not make really good money. There's a huge disconnect and to assume that followers equals business success. It's just not right.
Amber: So what does equal, in your opinion like, business success on Instagram?
Jenessa: Everyone has different business goals. But I would say one that usually applies to everybody is someone who has found their people. A lot of the time, as a small business owner, your niche might not be 50,000 people. Your niche might be 1,000 people. But if those 1,000 people are your people, you're running a successful business.
Amber: It's such a good distinction.
Jenessa: It isn't about the number of people. It's about what type of people. And oftentimes if you go viral and you randomly get 5,000 new followers, those aren't your people.
Amber: Yeah. I feel like that's an underrated is slow growth.
Jenessa: Yeah. I think slow growth, organic creation of relationships on Instagram is where the money is at is where the business success is at.
Amber: I love it.
Jenessa: Ooh. One last thing that I thought of underrated. Engagement stickers on your stories.
Amber: Oh, I’m glad you said that.
Jenessa: So show up in your Instagram stories. Yes, but near the start of your Instagram stories, as often as you can, as organically as you can, don't force it. Drop an Instagram engagement sticker. This is a poll. This is a question box. This is a little quiz. A, because people just like to interact with you, but B, when you do that there will be an uptick in your engagement because people are clicking on your story, and that will then tell the algorithm, hey, this should reach more people. If someone's engaging with your stories through an engagement sticker, you will reach more people. I think it's just fun. I don't know. I love polls. I could drop a poll every day.
Amber: Yeah. No, and I'm like, nosy. So like if someone drops like something where I can't see the data unless I vote. I’m like, I'm voting.
Jenessa: I'm voting.
Amber: I gotta know.
Jenessa: I mean, I do always add a little like popcorn options. So people that just, they don't want to vote, but want to see the results. But popcorn options for them.
Amber: That's funny. You told me that when you went through my Instagram and I was like, okay, like that's something easy I could just add. You know, when you have something that's like working, it's like optimization more. And I think that that's a really useful word for people who are like, you know, I like Instagram, but I want to make it better.
Jenessa: Want a one percent tweak?
Amber: Yes. Could you start? Totally.
Jenessa: And if all you do from this podcast is to start dropping more engagement stickers. Woohoo. That's a one percent improvement.
Amber: Yes. I love it. Okay. Let's go back to overrated.
Jenessa: Overrated. We've talked about follower count. Other overrated things on Instagram. Posting frequency that is outside of your bandwidth. Okay, I have very strong feelings about this. I posted today with a long rant in the caption about it. If you were setting a posting frequency that some quote unquote Instagram guru told you, and it is not something that is within your bandwidth to create right now, you will burn out and you will stop posting.
Amber: Let's talk about what bandwidth actually means for people. Because I feel like this is very unique.
Jenessa: Bandwidth comes down to a few things. It's how much time you have to dedicate to Instagram. It's your resources. Resources could be, do you have an assistant who's helping you create stuff? Okay. That means you can post more.
Have you hired a social media manager? Well then shoot, post as much as you want. Okay, but really it comes down to your time, but also a lot of the time it comes down to where you want to spend your energy and your efforts. And if Instagram in any way turns into a creative or emotional drain on you, then you gotta back up a little bit. So, your time and your resources really determines your bandwidth.
Amber: Yeah. I would add too, is like your season of life. I remember when I had Lainey, I didn't really post very much, like, and I just didn't really worry about it.
Jenessa: Okay, I had a baby this summer. And I created all this content ahead of time, I handed it to my business partner, and I was like, I'm 100 percent out. And our only goal for our Instagram across over that three month period was just maintenance. It was just keeping Instagram slowly, we're still here, but we weren't focused on growth. We weren't focused on creating or nurturing our community to any really great extent because it wasn't within my bandwidth at the time.
Amber: It was like, are you familiar with floor and ceiling?
Jenessa: I don't think so.
Amber: So like the floor and ceiling, the first time I heard about it was like people who wanted to start like an exercise habit. So like floor goal would be putting your shoes on. Ceiling goal would be like, I'm crushing my one hour workout at orange.
Jenessa: So how does that work for you for your Instagram?
Amber: I have four goals, which are like bare minimum. Things that I couldn't see myself going a week, a full week without showing up. That's like floor. Ceiling would be like showing up every day. That's my ceiling, but I don't beat myself up for not being at my ceiling. I just come back when I feel better. You know what I mean?
Jenessa: It's a really healthy way to go about Instagram. I love that.
Amber: So I think that that's what you just described. Like it was like your floor. Like, well, you're going to be here. We're not going to like put any super crazy intentional effort, but we're here.
Jenessa: Another overrated thing is creating a perfect Instagram grid. It does not need to look like that anymore. That was the trend five years ago. You can set it down. You can let it go. It doesn't need to be there. You can still create awesome, beautifully branded Instagram content, but you don't need to be restrained to some fancy grid.
Amber: So good.
Jenessa: Let it go.
Amber: Especially if that's not you, anyway.
Jenessa: If you love it, embrace it. Rock it, but a lot of the time it inhibits you from being able to post, oh, but I really feel, I love this, really can't wait to post it. Oh, but I need to post this graphic and this image before I can get there. It's limiting you then.
Jenessa: Yeah. And especially if it causes you to not post. That's like a big red flag for me. If you're trying to, that's like perfectionism, right? If it's causing you to not take action, that meaningful action. Like supporting your community and making connections, like red flag. Like something's going on. I think overrated is, I'm curious if you actually disagree with me, is what you put in your bio.
Jenessa: Oh, tell me what you think is overrated about it.
Amber: Because I think people like obsess over what they call themselves or saying it the right way. I think this is one of those things like I resonate with the word optimize, like make it the best you can be and then freaking let it go.
Jenessa; Yes. Okay. I agree with that. I think there's a time to be strategic about it and plan it out and be intentional with your bio. But if you're stressing the hell out…
Amber: Or changing it every day or not knowing what to call yourself and not posting because your bio is not ready. Overrated.
Jenessa: Again, a boundary that doesn't need to be there.
Amber: Okay, but I do want to hear from you because I think you have good tips and tricks for optimization for bio. So like let's put your mind at ease. Let's talk about what do you put in your freaking bio?
Jenessa: I do this as one of my services because a lot of people get paralyzed with their Instagram bios. So the first rule of thumb is figure out what your SEO keywords are. Whatever's going on on your website, whatever goes into your messaging. There are, I usually focus on 10 to 12 words for any one business. As many of those words as possible should be showing up within your name and your bio. Your name is the bolded portion, I'm not talking about your username.
It's the bolded portion of your bio, and then you have the three to four lines underneath it. So, you want to be dropping all of those. But really what you need to call out here is who you serve, and what solutions you're offering them. I specifically call out that I work with small business owners.
Okay, that makes sense. Those are some of my keywords. And then I clearly state what I offer. Okay. So we offer Instagram coaching, social media management, and brand design. You don't have to say it fancy. You can be very straightforward with your services. I always recommend that people add some emojis.
It breaks it up. It adds some personality and it makes it easier to read. I strongly recommend against having a more dot, dot, dot option. Because asking a first time viewer to put in any kind of effort on your profile that is just to see that last line when really the effort you want them to put in is to go to your website, to look through your highlight bubbles, to go to your pin posts.
It’s a waste. So if you can, get that off. And then specifically for location based businesses. That has to be bold. It needs to be very clear where you're operating, if that's significant. If you're a photographer, if you're someone who only does coaching in person.
Amber: Yeah, that's really good. Easily searchable.
Jenessa: Easily searchable. Do you consider Instagram a search tool? It's a search engine.
Amber: Yeah.
Jenessa: Totally.
Amber: Cause I do. Like, when I hear someone now, that's like one of the first places I go. I look them up on Instagram. It's very interesting to see my brain do that.
Jenessa: We are doing a branded shoot for our business next week, and I found them through Instagram. I didn't search anywhere else other than Instagram. That's how people are finding you. Really what it comes down to is you have someone's attention for six or seven seconds. Communicate as…
Amber: Oh that I feel like so much pressure.
Jenessa: Oh, sorry.
Amber: I need coaching.
Jenessa: The point I'm trying to make here is write so clearly that they can't misunderstand. Don't use words or jargon in your bio that someone outside of your industry doesn't understand. I think sometimes we get so focused on being like, well this is my business and I want to sound like the expert. That's really awesome. But you need to communicate at an eighth grade reading level.
Amber: That's another good tip.
Jenessa: Yeah.
Amber: You're full of tips and tricks. Just a little plug, you guys should be following Jenessa and McKenna on Instagram.
Jenessa: We'd love to have you.
Amber: Yeah. Cause you guys give good tips. Okay. Let's talk about hooks for a second because I think that's another underrated thing that people…if you're not into marketing lingo, you never really learn that. Like, I didn't learn hooks in school. You know what I mean? Like, you don't learn this kind of writing.
Jenessa: It's the quote unquote intro sentence, I guess, that we learned or thesis. But yes, your hook on Instagram is the first line in your real script. It's the first line in your caption. It's the first graphic of your graphic carousel. It's whatever someone is reading first of your content. It's usually about eight to twelve words. This is the piece of your content that matters most.
You have a ton of value or an offer to sell or something inspirational, but no one's going to get to that if you don't bring them in. If they don't have a, ooh, so what? I want to know more.
Amber: Do you keep a swipe file by chance?
Jenessa: No, I don't know what that is.
Amber: So like, a swipe file is like, oh, I like that post and I'm going to save it for reference later. Like, more like research based. Like, what hook did they use?
Jenessa: I have like 10 different folders of things I've saved for post inspiration. Things that are...
Amber: So that's a swipe file.
Jenessa: Okay, then I... And then, yes, I just didn't know the terminology.
Amber: Yeah, that's okay. Just like, for reference.
Jenessa: Yep, so I'm creating right now a list of 250 hooks that I just have within my Last Minute Club. It’s one of my offers that I can just always have access to and my team can have access to when we're creating. Because hooks matter so much and it sounds really intense to say this but at least half of your time on your post should go towards that first hook. It can be a visual hook. You can have a really compelling first three seconds of your reel or your words but it really matters.
Amber: How do you be compelling? Break this down for them because some people have never heard the word hook. Some people have. They don't know like how do you write in a compelling fashion. I know this is hard and I know this is hard to summarize. This is why you have to join her Last Minute C lub because she'll just tell you.
Jenessa: Yeah, I'll just give you all the hooks. People need a, and now what? So, a hook I wrote today on one of my posts is, I don't even know if I should get into this rant. And you're like, oh, why would you not get into the rant? What opinion do you have to share?
You're creating curiosity. Okay. So if there's a common industry practice in your fields and you say, don't do it, do this instead. I'm going to be like, but no, everyone does that. Why wouldn't I do that? You want someone to have a question after the first three seconds that they are looking at your content.
And that will lead them to keep reading, to keep watching. So, get to the root of what are you saying in your post, and then try and add some curiosity to it. It sounds hard. If it's something you struggle with, I have a hooks downloadable coming to you. I've been working on it for weeks.
Amber: No, I think it's such a valuable resource because this is something that I actually just taught in my master class. Like there's skills that aren't really taught to be an entrepreneur or a solopreneur or a business owner or a coach, right. To like actually get people interested in what you do.
And this is one of them. Like when I went to high school English or even English in college, no one taught me how to write a persuasive email. Like what to put in the headline - cause you could use the same...
Jenessa: How valuable would that have been?
Amber: I know, right?
Jenessa: Gosh, how much easier would email marketing have been at the start?
Amber: I had to learn from like, I think of entrepreneurship, like an apprenticeship based industry, right? You have to learn from people doing it like this. Learn from people who have learned the skills either through trial and error or their own education, but it's not something that you learn in college, necessarily. Like, how to capture attention is very much like learned on the job, or borrowed from resources, like what’s necessary.
Jenessa: Or borrowed. Or experimented with. This is a space that you do have to kind of trial and error.
Amber: I'm always experimenting. Always.
Jenessa: Sometimes my hooks totally flop and I'm like, okay, that wasn't compelling. And that's okay. I learn from it and I keep going.
Amber: And I think another thing that we didn't talk about is like very overrated, is like individual post performance. We look at data for overall, but like if one post of yours flops, who freaking cares?
Jenessa: Yes, in my clients’ analytic insights reports, or the audits that I do for them, I call out the bottom five performing reels and the top five performing reels. Not to hone in on why that one didn't perform well, but to figure out what connected these five reels. What is the theme? What quality do they all share that didn't resonate with your audience?
Amber: Yeah. Or the pattern. I like to look for patterns. Oh, my audience likes to hear about...
Jenessa: You're not creating three posts this year. If you were creating only three, then okay, make them. Then there's a lot more pressure behind them, but you're posting frequently. It's okay for some to do great, some to be middle ground and some to not do great.
Amber: Okay. I think this might be one of our last topics. This is like something you teach really well, which is nurturing your audience and you've really friendships.
Jenessa: Well, you're great at this.
Amber: Okay. We're both great at this.
Jenessa: So really what it comes down to is if you had a Brick and Mortar store, okay. And someone walked in and said something to you like, oh, what a cute store. And you turned around and walked to your back room. That is just rude. It's just that you wouldn't do it.
Amber: Oh hey, where's the soap? Bye.
Jenessa: And that is really all just illustrating that if someone comments on your content or sends you a DM or engages with you in any fashion and you don't respond, you are losing a potential client.
Amber: So slow this conversation down because I think what happened, this is so good. Someone will post and they immediately assume, they would never hire me. They're not really interested. Or they're just have judgments and assumptions right away.
Jenessa: So the doubt creeps in. And you think that inhibits people from engaging?
Amber: I think so.
Jenessa: Then take the stress off. Don't make the pressure here. Oh my gosh, they're going to be a client tomorrow. Let's create some kind of connection. Okay. And if all it does is play out to I had a positive interaction today. Great.
Amber: And this is the other thing I think about. Is like, my clients will watch how I comment to other people.
Jenessa: Oh, do they? Okay.
Amber: I'm assuming.
Jenessa: Yeah, you're right.
Amber: Or potential. They might read the comments and see how I respond to other people even if they don't comment, they're snooping, right? They're stalking.
Jenessa: Yes. They're watching.
Amber: So it's like, I want to represent myself in a way that is integrity to me. Like I am a kind person. I am thoughtful in my responses to everyone in my world. Right? So it's not just like the person that you're responding to. It's also the people who are observing you respond to that person.
Jenessa: That's a great point. I haven't thought about it that way, but other people can… You're representing your business, your brand, yourself, especially if you're a coach. How you're interacting here really matters because people are considering working with you individually.
Amber: Yeah. That's a very obvious one. Comment, respond to comments, respond to DM’s. How else do you nurture?
Jenessa: Here, I think it comes down to what you're doing with those conversations. Are you just like copy and pasting a response? That's a huge red flag for me, okay?
Amber: That's cringy.
Jenessa: My rules of thumb are, write in complete sentences because that means you're actually sharing something worthwhile. Write the way you speak. If you sound like ChatGPT, people don't want to engage with that, okay? Write the way you and your brand and your business like to be messaged or to talk. Be you and be authentic while you're writing. And then think of everyone you're talking with as a real person.
I think sometimes we get lost in the, this is an account. Nope. It's Amber behind. It's Amber Smith. It is a human. Write to them like a human. Don't write to them, I don't know, like a robot.
Amber: Yeah. I also think, because we talked about non-needy networking, how would you describe like that, even like a mindset, of not needing people to turn into clients right away. Cause I feel like nurturing, I love teaching business like a garden. So like some plants grow fast and some people are going to be ready to work with you this month. Great. Speak to them too. But some are going to be, I've had a client tell me that she waited for 18 months. Like she just watched me for 18 months before we worked together.
Jenessa: Wow.
Amber: But good thing I kept showing up. Last night we were hanging out and you're like, I watched 60 people close their doors. This happens all the time, you guys, because people just stop.
Jenessa: Think about it as like you're making a new friend. You don't make a new friend and the next day they're your best friend. It's cool in kindergarten. It works for my girls all the time. Okay. But it doesn't work for me in real life. My neighbor, I have been building that relationship with her since I moved in a year and a half ago. And now I feel like we're pretty good friends. That took a while. It's okay for the people that you're reaching out to and connecting with on Instagram for that to be a slow build.
Amber: Yeah. I think about like dating a lot where it's like, hey, you look great. Do you wanna get married? That's like the equivalent of what like, especially if you're an expensive service provider, hey, you want to pay me 20 grand?
Jenessa: Those cold DMs are so off putting.
Amber: It's so off putting. And like, I like to think about like how I want to work with my clients. Right. Like I actually teach this. It's like, I want to have a great relationship on my end. Like I want to be excited to talk to you. I want to look forward to our calls. And so it is a slow build.
Jenessa: I think that's a really good point. It's okay if your engagement is a seed today that is an awesome plant, flower…
Amber: Tree!
Jenessa: Tree in 18 months. That's awesome. It's okay to just engage for a little bit of a time each day. I love the way you do this. Will you talk about your like 15 minutes?
Amber: Oh yeah. So I actually, there's like a podcast. If you scroll back a few, it's called 15 minute marketing plan or something that I still do! So it's like, you mentioned it earlier, I go to people who follow me like on my stories. Cause that's where all the good stuff happens. The gold! And so I look at like, who's been following me? Like, can I go comment on their stuff? Can I go like their story or respond in a very human way? This is not me like sneakily trying to like, become my client. Like all creepy like, you know? One, because I love humans. Especially if you're a life coach. We love the humans.
That's why we do what we do. And that doesn't just mean you're paying clients. It means your community that you're building. And so I love doing it genuinely. Five people that follow me. I also like going to five people that I follow and commenting on their posts or their stories and just like a normal human.
And then I also like going to bigger accounts that might be lined up with me and just responding to comments. I don't do that as much now, but when I was brand new, I did that every day because it was like, this is how I'm getting exposure instead of paying ads. This is where I'm going to meet people that don't know me yet.
Jenessa: And on a strategic standpoint, when you go on these, other accounts and you comment and you engage, you're telling the algorithm, this is the kind of people I want to be with in this space. And the algorithm will then start showing your content to them. So be intentional about who you're commenting on through your account.
Don't go to your niece and comment on her stuff and say, you're so cute. That isn't for your business account. Okay. This is a separate space. You're confusing the algorithm when you do that. Stay in your lane, stay in your industry, and with your clients. Stay in your niche, in your circle.
Amber: I'm glad you added that, because don't interact with your family members!
Jenessa: It just helps the algorithm. You're telling them all the time, with all of your actions, what corner of Instagram you're going to live in. Be very clear.
Amber: Anything else about nurturing that you can think of?
Jenessa: I think you do it beautifully. If you don't know what to do, look at Amber. Watch her.
Amber: Or you!
Jenessa: She's doing it great. Feel free to watch me, but also her.
Amber: Yeah, because, I mean, they know me.
Jenessa: That's true.
Amber: Most of them are hanging out with me on Instagram. And if you're not, @itsambersmith. I'm just teasing. For sure, I think Instagram, for me, I love it. And so it makes my heart break when people are like, I hate Instagram. Or, Instagram stresses me out so much. And I'm like, you probably don't have good boundaries, which we didn't even talk about. Personal boundaries with Instagram. Like, not checking it all the time. Having days where you're like, you know what? I'm just gonna take care of myself. Like, I'm good. I don't know if you have anything else to say about that.
Jenessa: I have five boundaries.
Amber: Oh perfect, let's talk about it.
Jenessa: Okay. So the first boundary I set is that I don't work on the weekends. Again, this is me. This doesn't have to be you. But for me personally, I draw the line. I don't get on my business account on Saturdays and Sundays. I need that for my personal mental health and for the breaks that make me a happier human, okay?
Amber: Do you plan posts for the weekend?
Jenessa: I don't.
Amber: Oh, so you're just off?
Jenessa: I'm off.
Amber: Okay, love it.
Jenessa: On weekends. The other thing that I do is that I let myself go on a trip. And be totally free and on that trip. I prep my posts, I schedule them, and I walk away. And it's okay that I'm not engaging during those days. I put in my bio that I am MIA, and I'll return on blank date.
Amber: Love it. How do you schedule your posts?
Jenessa: There's a lot of free tools.
Amber: Okay.
Jenessa: You can literally do it through Creator Studio, which is one of Meta's apps. Tools for you. The next thing I do is if I'm in a negative headspace, we talked about this. I don't post. I can feel that negative energy leaking into my post. I'm like, oh, this isn't the time. I'll look at this again tomorrow. When I am setting aside time to engage, I'm really intentional about it. I set a timer. When my timer goes off, I stop because there's something about engagement that can feel really draining if you let yourself do it too long.
Amber: I've been there. It's the endless, like, I think this is just the truth of being an entrepreneur is like there is always more you can do. And you have to decide what's enough and what's like what you're done with.
Jenessa: Yep. So figure out what amount of time you're willing to engage today, set the timer, walk away when it dings. And the last one we already talked about, don't aim for perfect content. It's debilitating. Aim for B+ and that is a boundary that really will save your mental health.
Amber: So if someone's like, okay. I love this episode. I want to love Instagram. Like, what are the top three things they're taking away from today?
Jenessa: Message to the one. Like, look at those underrated pieces of Instagram and work them into your strategy. And just really trust this is a slow game, and you are fully capable of kicking ass in this space. That is like the moral of my story. It is in like half of my post. It ends with some kind of like, you can kick ass here. You are capable, even if you do it differently than how these other accounts are doing it. There's a way that you really can create a successful business here. So you can do this.
Instagram does not have to be the hardest thing ever. Figure out how to simplify it for yourself. Set some boundaries.
Amber: So good.
Jenessa: And go.
Amber: And I think about the people who have like a 100, 200 followers and they're like, oh, I'm just such a small account. I'm like, you have an advantage, especially organic marketing.
Jenessa: You do.
Amber: You know them, they know you. Tony Robbins doesn't know his followers. Mel Robbins doesn't, like all these big coaches that have thousands and millions of followers, like they can't DM people personally, but you can.
Jenessa: I say all the time, if you have only 10 followers, show up for your 10. Instagram is this place where it's like, it has a compounding effect. If you show up for your 100 followers, those 100 followers turn into 200 followers.
Amber: Yeah. It's exponential.
Jenessa: When you're sitting there stressing out about how do you reach X amount more people, you're forgetting about the people that are already showing up for you and looking at your content. Focus in on them. That is how you grow.
Amber: Yes. One of my concepts that I teach is building from abundance, not to abundance. It's like, if you can't see the abundance of your audience as it is now, people can sniff that out too. If you're like, well, I have a thousand people, but you know, they're not really that good. Like your followers feel that from you versus like you showing up in gratitude and joy that they're there like you serve so differently. So I don't know. I'm like that really matters to me.
Jenessa: I love that. From abundance.
Amber: Yeah, because imagine let's say you even have a hundred people which is a quote small audience, if they all showed up to your house, that's so many people. And I think about the individual people that would be like, I love following your content. I'm so grateful that you chose to show up. Make this very individual and you'll always feel like you have enough of an audience.
Jenessa: Or just like go back 200 years. Could you imagine if you showed up and you had to like take whatever you were selling to a market and walk X amount of miles with the wagon and what are you selling? Some flower? Some chickens? Like you wouldn't have this audience.
Amber: We are living in such a cool time.
Jenessa: We are in such a cool time. Where you get to communicate and reach out to people all around the world. It’s a privilege.
Amber: Another Amberism is be in the miracle.
Jenessa: Yes, that's a totally you thing.
Amber: Yeah, because I think it is a miracle. Instagram itself, it is free. It is available across the world. You can connect with people. I've had clients in India, Australia, Europe, Canada, America, different states. That's amazing. And so I think we can get caught up in what the world wants to like say about like popularity and like huge overnight success. People you really know, people you really want to go to lunch with are on your instagram account. That's awesome!
Jenessa: Right now.
Amber: Right now! Talk to them.
Jenessa: Yeah, exactly.
Amber: Yes, okay. This is amazing. I love how you do Instagram. I love how you teach Instagram. Obviously that's why I was so excited. Who knew that we would be doing this when we were just little college roommates?
Jenessa: I know, what, 12 years ago?
Amber: Oof. So funny. Well, thank you. Any final words of wisdom for these beautiful people?
Jenessa: The majority of you are coaches, and I have been inside of Amber's Instagram account. I know that sounds so weird to say, but I've done it.
Amber: I gave her the keys to the kingdom.
Jenessa: I have done an Instagram insights audit on Amber's account. I have seen the back end of all the things that she's creating and doing on Instagram. And she's doing it beautifully. She speaks to the one. She's creating engaging content. She creates relationships and through direct messages. If you're wondering how to do something or who to emulate, I think Amber is a really, really great place to start.
Amber: Well, thanks. That was unexpected. I thought you're going to drop some more bombs on us.
Jenessa: That is the bomb.
Amber: Well, thank you for spending time for my audience and for my listeners. And I'm just excited for them to get to know you and to like apply what we talked about because that's where the real magic is. It's not just in listening to this podcast, it's taking what we talked about and applying it to your own growth on Instagram.
Jenessa: Yeah, you've got this.
Amber: Okay, yeah. You can go kick ass, right?
Jenessa: Yeah, you can.
Amber: Okay, thanks.
